“To Captain Butler
Hauteville House,
25 November, 1861
You ask my opinion, Sir, about the China expedition. You consider this expedition to be honourable and glorious, and you have the kindness to attach some consideration to my feelings; according to you, the China expedition, carried out jointly under the flags of Queen Victoria and the Emperor Napoleon, is a glory to be shared between France and England, and you wish to know how much approval I feel I can give to this English and French victory.
Since you wish to know my opinion, here it is:
There was, in a corner of the world, a wonder of the world; this wonder was called the Summer Palace. Art has two principles, the Idea, which produces European art, and the Chimera, which produces oriental art. The Summer Palace was to chimerical art what the Parthenon is to ideal art. All that can be begotten of the imagination of an almost extra-human people was there. It was not a single, unique work like the Parthenon. It was a kind of enormous model of the chimera, if the chimera can have a model. Imagine some inexpressible construction, something like a lunar building, and you will have the Summer Palace. Build a dream with marble, jade, bronze and porcelain, frame it with cedar wood, cover it with precious stones, drape it with silk, make it here a sanctuary, there a harem, elsewhere a citadel, put gods there, and monsters, varnish it, enamel it, gild it, paint it, have architects who are poets build the thousand and one dreams of the thousand and one nights, add gardens, basins, gushing water and foam, swans, ibis, peacocks, suppose in a word a sort of dazzling cavern of human fantasy with the face of a temple and palace, such was this building. The slow work of generations had been necessary to create it. This edifice, as enormous as a city, had been built by the centuries, for whom? For the peoples. For the work of time belongs to man. Artists, poets and philosophers knew the Summer Palace; Voltaire talks of it. People spoke of the Parthenon in Greece, the pyramids in Egypt, the Coliseum in Rome, Notre-Dame in Paris, the Summer Palace in the Orient. If people did not see it they imagined it. It was a kind of tremendous unknown masterpiece, glimpsed from the distance in a kind of twilight, like a silhouette of the civilization of Asia on the horizon of the civilization of Europe.
This wonder has disappeared.
One day two bandits entered the Summer Palace. One plundered, the other burned. Victory can be a thieving woman, or so it seems. The devastation of the Summer Palace was accomplished by the two victors acting jointly. Mixed up in all this is the name of Elgin, which inevitably calls to mind the Parthenon. What was done to the Parthenon was done to the Summer Palace, more thoroughly and better, so that nothing of it should be left. All the treasures of all our cathedrals put together could not equal this formidable and splendid museum of the Orient. It contained not only masterpieces of art, but masses of jewelry. What a great exploit, what a windfall! One of the two victors filled his pockets; when the other saw this he filled his coffers. And back they came to Europe, arm in arm, laughing away. Such is the story of the two bandits.
We Europeans are the civilized ones, and for us the Chinese are the barbarians. This is what civilization has done to barbarism.
Before history, one of the two bandits will be called France; the other will be called England. But I protest, and I thank you for giving me the opportunity! the crimes of those who lead are not the fault of those who are led; Governments are sometimes bandits, peoples never.
The French empire has pocketed half of this victory, and today with a kind of proprietorial naivety it displays the splendid bric-a-brac of the Summer Palace. I hope that a day will come when France, delivered and cleansed, will return this booty to despoiled China.
Meanwhile, there is a theft and two thieves.
I take note.
This, Sir, is how much approval I give to the China expedition.”
-Victor Hugo
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原腾飞：英法联军为什么要烧圆明园？
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Summer Palace不是颐和园吗?现在大家看到的颐和园难道是重新修的?
drspurple 发表于 11/4/2018 9:39:13 AM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78969466#78969466][/url]
当然是圆明园，现在叫老夏宫Old Summer Palace，圆明园一直在国外非常有名，使节传教士都描写过它有多么辉煌壮观，有兴趣可以去查查当时的文献，伏尔泰曾经用鸟窝来形容和圆明园对比的凡尔赛，颐和园被八国联军毁过，但是毁的不像圆明园那么彻底，被清政府修复了很多部分，因为慈禧主要居住在颐和园。
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回复 [url=http://rd2.huaren4us.com/huaren.php?hrtopic_id=2354398&hrurl=%2fshowtopic.aspx%3ftopicid%3d2354398%26amp%3bpostid%3d78968766%2378968766][img][/img][/url]4楼Mintcafe的帖子[/url]
雨果说英法是两个强盗 原腾飞视频里也提到了
什么叫讲述历史？就是把多种声音都传递给大家让大家从更多的方面了解历史
exclamation 发表于 11/4/2018 8:46:20 AM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78969208#78969208]
呵呵，譬如二战日寇侵华，对那段历史，中国人，日本人，服务日本人的汉奸的角度绝对不同，都有他们的立场嘛。
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义和团滥杀外国传教士和中国教民，还杀了外国大使，围攻炮轰外国大使馆。清政府睁只眼闭只眼，暗中默许。这才引来八国联军。六毛和自干五们看战狼时，看中国政府远征救侨看得豪情万丈涕泪横流，怎么对外国政府救侨就不理解了？人家救侨就成恶行了？
mannbo 发表于 11/4/2018 11:10:26 AM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78969999#78969999]
义和团为神马杀传教士和教民？中国农民手痒痒就想杀人？读不懂历史文献的话，读读老舍的正红旗下，战狼里救侨是跑去人家的土地烧杀抢掠放火强奸去了？好奇怪啊，你站的完全不是中国人或者旁观者的角度，是神马造成你这种心理的很值得研究，你是信教的？
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义和团就是拳匪，首领好多都是土匪流氓，他们不仅杀洋人，还大量滥杀无辜百姓，烧西药房，拆铁道，推电线杆，大肆破坏火车轮船等西方先进科技，愚蠢野蛮，就是百年前的六毛和自干五。同时慈禧还向西方11国发宣战诏书，从上到下都不知世界之大，从上到下都不知自己几斤几两。这种围攻炮轰外国大使馆的事件，匪夷所思，可笑的是集数万之众还快两月都攻不下来，这就尴尬了。对于这种愚蠢暴扈野蛮狂妄之徒，反击給他们点教训是应该的。
mannbo 发表于 11/4/2018 1:04:11 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78970874#78970874]
来看看当时有良知的美国人是怎么看你眼里的拳匪和义和团哒。
Address at a meeting of the Berkeley Lyceum, New York, 1900
I don’t suppose that I am called here as an expert on education, for that would show a lack of foresight on your part and a deliberate intention to remind me of my shortcomings.
As I sat here looking around for an idea it struck me that I was called for two reasons. One was to do good to me, a poor unfortunate traveler on the world’s wide ocean, by giving me a knowledge of the nature and scope of your society and letting me know that others beside myself have been of some use in the world. The other reason that I can see is that you have called me to show by way of contrast what education can accomplish if administered in the right sort of doses.
Your worthy president said that the school pictures, which have received the admiration of the world at the Paris Exposition, have been sent to Russia, and this was a compliment from that Government – which is very surprising to me. Why, it is only an hour since I read a cablegram in the newspapers beginning “Russia Proposes to Retrench.” I was not expecting such a thunderbolt, and I thought what a happy thing it will be for Russians when the retrenchment will bring home the thirty thousand Russian troops now in Manchuria, to live in peaceful pursuits. I thought this was what Germany should do also without delay, and that France and all the other nations in China should follow suit.
Why should not China be free from the foreigners, who are only making trouble on her soil? If they would only all go home, what a pleasant place China would be for the Chinese! We do not allow Chinamen to come here, and I say in all seriousness that it would be a graceful thing to let China decide who shall go there.
China never wanted foreigners any more than foreigners wanted Chinamen, and on this question I am with the Boxers every time. The Boxer is a patriot. He loves his country better than he does the countries of other people. I wish him success. The Boxer believes in driving us out of his country. I am a Boxer too, for I believe in driving him out of our country.
When I read the Russian despatch further my dream of world peace vanished. It said that the vast expense of maintaining the army had made it necessary to retrench, and so the Government had decided that to support the army it would be necessary to withdraw the appropriation from the public schools. This is a monstrous idea to us. We believe that out of the public school grows the greatness of a nation.
It is curious to reflect how history repeats itself the world over. Why, I remember the same thing was done when I was a boy on the Mississippi River. There was a proposition in a township there to discontinue public schools because they were too expensive. An old farmer spoke up and said if they stopped the schools they would not save anything, because every time a school was closed a jail had to be built.
It’s like feeding a dog on his own tail. He’ll never get fat. I believe it is better to support schools than jails.
The work of your association is better and shows more wisdom than the Czar of Russia and all his people. This is not much of a compliment, but it’s the best I’ve got in stock.
-Mark Twain
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义和团杀洋人，因为他们认为洋人吃小孩。当年就是这么荒唐。
当然，八国联军里不少国家的军队也是相当的野蛮，欺负杀害中国平民。这也是事实。不过，再讲个事实，美国军队没有参与对平民的暴行，并尽力阻止其他国家的恶行。美国统帅还大骂欧洲列强是野蛮人。当时列强里不少主张瓜分中国，但美国坚决不同意。光绪帝当时也是求的美国为中国和列强周旋，减少中国战败的损失。
relay 发表于 11/4/2018 11:31:58 AM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78970183#78970183]
义和团杀人不是因为认为洋人吃小孩那么简单，义和团其实就是本土百姓对于外来殖民主义者一再忍耐后爆发的反抗。中国百姓其实是天下最能忍耐的民族了，中国也一直是对宗教极度宽容的国家，连他们都忍不下了，当时的情况可想而知啊。。。美军有上千个军人在中国的领土和中国人作战，这就和军纪良好的皇军在中国一样，军纪再好也洗不白，最多就是五十步笑百步了。另外你确定他们没参加嘛？ 那怎么解释美国国内那段时间的巨量中国文物？他们的统帅Chaffee确实有禁止过烧杀抢，但是根本没用，我读过几个当时美国人自己的记载，他们可全都是整车整车的抢，整船整船的运，每天笑歪了嘴啊。。。
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哈，这种反应也可以理解。皇上的行宫都给烧了，当然奇耻大辱。不过，讲拳匪之乱，就不能不讲回到第一次鸦片战争。太多，讲不完。我也没空。
就讲一条，拳匪杀洋人传教士。洋人传教是有条约保护的。为啥要条约保护？因为皇上以前不让。洋人有枪，打疼了皇上，逼他同意让洋人传教。所以，拳匪杀教士，违背条约义务。
你说条约不平等。对，它是不平等。但是，没有洋枪逼着，皇上根本不买账。他只认拳头。只能打疼了他，皇上才能认输。
为啥洋人一定要在中国传教？因为他们就是可以。这叫 信仰自由，结社自由。 又叫 普世价值。
所以，根本上，洋人和满清的冲突就是现代文明和野蛮的冲突。是，称自己的皇上为野蛮是很难接受。不过，就是那样的。要不，后面会有那么多中国人要引进德，赛先生？因为中国没有这个。你没有这些，你不就是一野蛮人吗？
看今天，两百年后，土工还不是没有信仰自由，结社自由。做的好多是，跟以前的皇上差不多，所以，就现在，在相当程度上，也还是个野蛮国家。剪了辩子没用的。
meanGirl 发表于 11/4/2018 12:28:25 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78970650#78970650]
信仰自由结社自由，同时也有不信仰不结社的自由，用拳头揍你逼你打开你家门给我传教，这在任何时空社会都叫做野蛮，你对普世价值好像有点误解了，对野蛮和文明好像也不是拎得很清。
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一个人的声音能代表世界主流声音？历史盲要多学习历史知识，实在找不到好的方法维基百科看看维基百科吧，你不会以为维基百科和你们的百度百科是一路货色吧？
Williamviktor 发表于 11/4/2018 8:29:28 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78973881#78973881]
主流声音是神马，愿闻其详, 另外所谓主流就能代表正确？逻辑该回炉打造了，或者有问题的是这种崇拜权威的心理。。。LOL
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插句嘴，Pence 上个月的演讲，确实厉害。有些时候，洋人你不能不服。人家鲁迅比我们读的还熟。
The great Chinese storyteller Lu Xun often lamented that his country, and he wrote, “has either looked down at foreigners as brutes, or up to them as saints,” but never “as equals.”
你这句话，就是Pence 他演讲的完美注解。
meanGirl 发表于 11/4/2018 1:26:25 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78971030#78971030]
他引用错了，鲁迅时代太早了，经过共产党的洗礼现在的中国早不是原先的中国了，现在的外国人都被叫做外国友人。。。LOL，给他作参谋的人大概对中国不是很了解吧。
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自己输入“义和团”搜维基百科啊，历史盲你高中历史不及格么？
文明世界的主流声音总比你专制国家的愚民历史客观吧？你专制国家的近代史那叫宣传不叫历史
不然怎么会有反日游行变成U型锁杂自己同胞的蠢事发生？日本人都笑死了，你们这些不就是当地义和团么？最后还要被朝廷剿灭，U型锁砸同胞的不一样被政府给判了么？
都2018年了中国怎么还有像你这样愚昧的国民啊？你配做中国人么？你拉低了整个中华民族的智商你知道么？
Williamviktor 发表于 11/4/2018 9:02:47 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78974224#78974224]
我帮你抓下来吧，你要是看的懂英文就自己看看，如果你认为维基百科就是权威。。。LOL
The Boxer Rebellion (拳亂), Boxer Uprising, or Yihetuan Movement (義和團運動) was an anti-foreign, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-colonial]anti-colonial[/url], and [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_movement]anti-Christian[/url] uprising that took place in [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China]China[/url] between 1899 and 1901, toward the end of the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty]Qing dynasty[/url]. They were motivated by proto-[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationalism]nationalist[/url] sentiments and by opposition to [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world]Western[/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism]colonialism[/url] and the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_missions_in_China]Christian missionary activity[/url] that was associated with it.
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回复 [url=http://rd2.huaren4us.com/huaren.php?hrtopic_id=2354398&hrurl=%2fshowtopic.aspx%3ftopicid%3d2354398%26amp%3bpostid%3d78974306%2378974306][img][/img][/url]49楼Mintcafe的帖子[/url]
自己英文水平不行就看看中文版的维基百科吧！丢什么人
[url=https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/义和团运动]https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/义和团运动[/url]
你什么时候瞎的？那么多负面评价不看就看几个正面评价？正面评价的都是些什么人自己心里没点儿比数？
Williamviktor 发表于 11/4/2018 9:20:27 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78974421#78974421]
我英文还可以啊，一般是看英文版本的，你好象是看不太懂嘛，怎么只会看中文版的？维基百科这种谁都可以改写的民间百科，因为立场不同，每个文字的版面其实都不太一样，正经拿这个当权威还是蛮可笑的，这个你大概也不懂吧LOL
From the beginning, views differed as to whether the Boxers were better seen as anti-imperialist, patriotic, and proto-nationalist or as "uncivilized", irrational, and futile opponents of inevitable change. The historian Joseph Esherick comments that "confusion about the Boxer Uprising is not simply a matter of popular misconceptions", for "there is no major incident in China's modern history on which the range of professional interpretation is as great"
Chinese liberals such as [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu_Shih]Hu Shi[/url] often condemned the Boxers for their irrationality and barbarity.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#cite_note-135][135][/url] Dr. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen]Sun Yat-sen[/url], the founding father of the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_(1912%E2%80%931949)]Republic of China[/url] and of the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuomintang]Nationalist[/url] Party at first believed that the Boxer Movement was stirred up by the Qing government's rumors, which "caused confusion among the populace", and delivered "scathing criticism" of the Boxers' "anti-foreignism and obscurantism". Sun praised the Boxers for their "spirit of resistance" but called them "bandits". Students shared an ambivalent attitude to the Boxers, stating that while the uprising originated from the "ignorant and stubborn people of the interior areas", their beliefs were "brave and righteous", and could "be transformed into a moving force for independence".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#cite_note-Han_20,_21-136][136][/url] After the fall of the Qing dynasty in 1911, nationalist Chinese became more sympathetic to the Boxers. In 1918 Sun praised their fighting spirit and said the Boxers were courageous and fearless, fighting to the death against the Alliance armies, specifically the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yangcun]Battle of Yangcun[/url].[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#cite_note-137][137][/url]The leader of the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Culture_Movement]New Culture Movement[/url], [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Duxiu]Chen Duxiu[/url], forgave the "barbarism of the Boxer... given the crime foreigners committed in China", and contended that it was those "subservient to the foreigners" that truly "deserved our resentment".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#cite_note-138][138][/url]
In other countries, views of the Boxers were complex and contentious. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Twain]Mark Twain[/url] said that "the Boxer is a patriot. He loves his country better than he does the countries of other people. I wish him success".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#cite_note-139][139][/url] The Russian writer [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Tolstoy]Leo Tolstoy[/url] also praised the Boxers. He accused Nicholas II of Russia and Wilhelm II of Germany of being chiefly responsible for the lootings, rapes, murders and the "Christian brutality" of the Russians and other western troops.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#cite_note-140][140][/url] The Russian revolutionary [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin]Vladimir Lenin[/url] mocked the Russian government's claim that it was protecting [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_civilization]Christian civilization[/url]: "Poor Imperial Government! So Christianly unselfish, and yet so unjustly maligned! Several years ago it unselfishly seized Port Arthur, and now it is unselfishly seizing Manchuria; it has unselfishly flooded the frontier provinces of China with hordes of contractors, engineers, and officers, who, by their conduct, have roused to indignation even the Chinese, known for their docility."[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#cite_note-141][141][/url] The Indian Bengali Hindu [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabindranath_Tagore]Rabindranath Tagore[/url]attacked the European colonialists.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#cite_note-Bickers2007-142][142][/url] A number of Indian soldiers in the British Indian Army agreed that the Boxers were right and the British stole from the Temple of Heaven a bell, which was given back to China by the Indian military in 1994.
Even some American churchmen spoke out in support of the Boxers. The evangelist Rev. Dr. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_F._Pentecost]George F. Pentecost[/url] said that the Boxer uprising was a "patriotic movement to expel the 'foreign devils' — just that — the foreign devils". Suppose, he said, the great nations of Europe were to “put their fleets together, came over here, seize Portland, move on down to Boston, then New York, then Philadelphia, and so on down the Atlantic Coast and around the Gulf of Galveston? Suppose they took possession of these port cities, drove our people into the hinterland, built great warehouses and factories, brought in a body of dissolute agents, and calmly notified our people that henceforward they would manage the commerce of the country? Would we not have a Boxer movement to drive those foreign European Christian devils out of our country?
The Russian newspaper Amurskii Krai criticized the killing of innocent civilians, charging that "restraint" "civilization" and "culture" instead of "racial hatred" and "destruction" would have been more becoming of a "civilized Christian nation". The paper asked "What shall we tell civilized people? We shall have to say to them: 'Do not consider us as brothers anymore. We are mean and terrible people; we have killed those who hid at our place, who sought our protection'"
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讲真，你是不是有文革后遗症，参加过梁效学习班儿什么的？白天黑夜，不眠不休，封一个马甲换一个立刻上，整日地跟人辩论，“炮轰” 批判？
SubDivision2006 发表于 11/4/2018 10:01:22 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78974851#78974851]
从行文语气观点和发帖反复粘帖的习惯来看，这位大概是那个大清药丸的马甲？专门为喷而喷的id，他真有认真辩论过嘛，话说华人上这种人最近好多啊，或者就是几个人一大堆马甲，这类人可能也挺可怜的，有任何一点有意义的事情做，都不可能混在女性论坛上专门做喷子了，还乐此不倦上了。
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回复 [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78974911#78974911]58楼Williamviktor的帖子[/url]
你看得懂英文嘛？
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就是他啊。他得统共封了几十个马甲了。而且总是一副亢奋的状态。躲着点儿吧。拼体力拼不起。
SubDivision2006 发表于 11/4/2018 10:09:30 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78974929#78974929]
几十个马甲。。。神马一种执着啊。。。亢奋的辩论也罢，亢奋的复制粘帖确实拼不起，多谢mm提醒。
![[em160]](https://emojis.huaren.us/static/emojis/v1/yoci/em160.gif)
0操作15 #
感谢楼上贴出的英文信。袁腾飞这么说是有其政治目的还是只是个人偏见？
ccchhh 发表于 11/4/2018 7:45:52 AM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78968878#78968878]
哗众取宠吧
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0操作16 #
被打脸了就开始污蔑几十个马甲了？
复制给你看的事实你顾左右而言他我当然要多给你看几遍了，上过高中历史课的怎么会像你这样无知呢？
再给你看一遍众多名人和史学家对义和团的负面评价，你好好记住，有疑问的可以翻书看这些名人的评论出处都写在上面呢
[url=https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/义和团运动]https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/义和团运动[/url]
Williamviktor 发表于 11/4/2018 10:28:25 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78975085#78975085]
谢谢，众多的海外历史学家和名人对义和团的正面评价也可以在这里找到，虽然你大概看不懂LOL
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion[/url]
0操作17 #
既然这样那就祝你全家被义和团
林正平 发表于 11/4/2018 10:54:07 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78975368#78975368]
祝你全家被圆明园
![[em78]](https://emojis.huaren.us/static/emojis/v1/yoci/em78.gif)
0操作18 #
这种垃圾真不值得你浪费时间
magch 发表于 11/4/2018 10:58:00 PM [url=http://forums.huaren.us/showtopic.aspx?topicid=2354398&postid=78975414#78975414]
嗯嗯，刚把他们封啦，
![[em112]](https://emojis.huaren.us/static/emojis/v1/yoci/em112.gif)
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